Does intent matter?

[feuervogel]

If you say words that are known to be hurtful, be they the traditional slurs starting with n or c, among others, or words that people who are hurt by words like "lame" are telling you directly that they are hurtful words, your intent doesn't fucking matter.

You are willfully and directly causing harm because you refuse to understand their point of view and accept that your continued usage of those words is harmful.

That's an asshole thing to do.

Genderbitch has a post that's extremely on point: Intent! It's fucking magic!

Today, someone said a slur. It actually doesn’t matter what slur it was, because you see, he didn’t intend to hurt anyone and therefore it couldn’t possibly be a slur. Much like how intent magically protects the actions of all privileged fuckjobs, intent means that anything you say, no matter how many groups it hurts, what awful views it enables, no matter what systemic bigotries it props up through the usage of language that enforces social concepts that crush a marginalized group, it mystically negates all of that.

So if you out a trans woman? Your uncanny intent wraps around her and protects her from murder, harassment, degendering and objectification by the people you just outed her to! If you say something ableist, you’re not actually contributing to the system that demeans PWD because your intent will gird your words with alchemical shields, made of eldritch power themselves, that prevent the words from creating and furthering social associations between disability and being bad, wrong, broken or unwanted! I know? Isn’t it grand? I love magic!

Go read the rest.

Comments

[thady]

Yes! I'm so sorry you have to deal with this. Sadly it only happenes all too often.

[feuervogel]

It does. DX

Now I have people telling me I need a reality check, because in order to give a fuck about not offending someone, they have to either respect or care about that person. What sort of a fucking asshole is THAT? OH RIGHT, the kind of asshole who casually uses the word "t-w-lh--d."

[krait]

It amazes me how often the people demanding reality checks from others fail to perform their own... So sorry you're having to 'hear' these failures spouting off in your own journal.

I can tell I am either sleep-deprived or Pratchett-deprived, because my brain tried to fill in those dashes in the last word with a common term for fans of Twilight. :D

[skogkatt.livejournal.com]

I'm quite because I agree and haven't much to add to this conversation. But I do agree.

[feuervogel]

I figured :)

[anacoluthon.livejournal.com]

Oh good, you found that post (or maybe already had it). The title alone is pretty great.

[feuervogel]

I put it into the google after your comment on fb. Rather than burying it in comments, I thought I'd frontpage it.

[intravenusann.livejournal.com]

That is my favorite post. I like to quote it when people say, "Well, I didn't mean to upset you" to me. Which is OFTENER THAN I WISH.

[feuervogel]

Sarcasm is a mighty weapon.

I've had the defense of "BUT MY INTENT IS GOOD SO YOUR HURT DOESN'T MATTER" in comments more than I wish over the last 2 days.

[intravenusann.livejournal.com]

It's so selfish and illogical. I know people don't want to feel guilty for things ever, but some of the same people can be so petty when you've said something which upsets you. I mean, that's just human nature! Still, it's part of human nature that makes me disappointed.

[feuervogel]

People are inherently selfish. (That's why we'll always have propertarianism, after all.)

I mean, how would they feel if I walked up to them and kicked them in the shin? Hurt, right? Then I'd say, "Oh, sorry, I didn't intend to hurt you, and because intent is what matters, I'll keep doing it." How much of an asshole would I be then?

Why can't people grasp this simple concept?

[corneredangel.livejournal.com]

You are willfully and directly causing harm because you refuse to understand their point of view

Reality check time?

To understand somebody else's point of view and to give a fuck about somebody else's point of view, I need to have good reasons *to* give a fuck.

Liking that person, respecting that person, or needing that person for something goes a long way. And if something else is finding something that I'm saying hurtful, that's mostly their problem and not really my problem.

[feuervogel]

You think "Towelhead" is perfectly valid discourse. Who needs the reality check here?

[feuervogel]

Aside from that, being a decent human being isn't so goddamn onerous. If giving a fuck requires knowing someone personally, that's a shitty way to live.

How goddamn hard is it to stop saying "Dude, that's so retarded"? NOT VERY.

[matt_doyle]

And if something else is finding something that I'm saying hurtful, that's mostly their problem and not really my problem.

Freudian slip there- I assume you meant someone and not something else, but your lack of empathy actually makes me want to check.

Also: that attitude, plain and simple, makes you a complete asshole.

[miome.livejournal.com]

I hope you never need something from the people you offend, then. There is an element of self-interest in maintaining good relationships with others.

[leora.livejournal.com]

That actually makes sense. Your argument is that it is okay for you to hurt other people because you don't care about them.

It's evil, but it makes sense. I do appreciate your honesty that you consider it acceptable to go around deliberately hurting people that you don't care about.

[corneredangel.livejournal.com]

For what it's worth, don't think I'm the kind of guy who's going to be punching babies in the face and kicking puppies on his way to work.

I just have *very* little patience for things and people I don't care to put up with and don't have to put up with.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I hadn't assumed that. First off, few people enjoy that. Second, you don't seem to enjoy going out of your way to hurt people. You just aren't willing to take any effort to avoid hurting people when you know your actions are doing so, unless you care about the people in question. You're simply content to hurt people if you're not emotionally invested in them.

It's the difference between someone who will swerve to hit someone with their car and someone would never do that, but wouldn't swerve to avoid hitting someone if they didn't care about the person in question - except in a much more indirect way and probably on a much smaller scale.

I really doubt you ever go out of your way to deliberately harm people who have done nothing.

[smarriveurr.livejournal.com]

I understand. It's like, the other day, I was on my way to work, and there was this old woman on the sidewalk. She was in my way, and I had no reason to give enough of a fuck about her to slip past sideways, so I bowled into her at full speed. If that knocks her into the snow and ice, that's mostly her problem and not really my problem. I mean, if the tables had been turned, and she slammed into me, I'd have been fine, so why should I care?

[ladydreamer.livejournal.com]

I really don't understand why people get so defensive over these things, especially when there's no arguing the point of what they have meant or there's a clear takedown of the word linked handily so no effort is required, OR it's in a theoretical conversation about the matter and the person in question didn't actually say it in public conversation (thereby exposing their ass). I'm pretty sure if someone told me that there were ableist roots to the word jongleur and it was hurtful to them… I would find some way not to call people jongleurs.

"Lame" is not so singularly unique in meaning that I'm not willing to excise it from my language. "Crazy" and "insane" are harder, even when I fit that population and know I shouldn't use those terms pejoratively. That doesn't mean you shouldn't make the effort, when you mean evil! or intense!! or out of control!, not to find a word that means those things instead. Take it word by word and cut them out. Expand your vocab. SAY WHAT YOU MEAN. Not hateful things that harm other people.

That is a great article, but reading it is also depressing because clearly terrible shit can go down because of thoughtless wielding of language, and yet people argue that it's all meaningless. *bookmarks*

[feuervogel]

English has a ton of words that can be used in place of "lame (pejorative)." Why not use them? Terrible, awful, bad, pathetic (a "lame joke"). I'm sure we could check Roget's and come up with even more words!

Why do people insist on being assholes who think "it's your fault for being so sensitive" is the offended's problem, rather than theirs for being a giant shitty asshole?

[fabula-umbrae.livejournal.com]

I'm curious. How do you react? Do you politely ask someone to not use certain terms because it hurts you or do you come at it from an aggressive angle?

Can you give me an example of what exactly you say/do?

*is trying to piece things together because something just doesn't seem to be lining up*

[feuervogel]

In general, or me specifically? I apparently am too mean, but trying the polite way didn't get through anyone's heads, so I'm unconvinced that if I were just nicer people would listen.

In the post where I linked to sohotrightnow's post, throughout the comments, leora says that yes, there are people in the disabled community who refer to themselves as lame, and they are hurt when they hear people casually throwing around that word as a pejorative, so please stop it. Which was rejected by various people, because "it doesn't mean that when I use it. You're misinterpreting and overreacting."

Some people will be swayed by reasoned argument. They're the people who actually care about the effects of their actions/words, and who say that if they know that X term is hurtful, they'll stop using it. Other people won't be swayed by any argument, polite or "rude."

[corpsefairy.livejournal.com]

I think it got through a couple people's heads. There was one commenter who thanked you for posting the 101 links, and thegreyghost said that he'd think about things. So I think that's a success, even if you didn't convince everyone.

[feuervogel]

The one I didn't convince will never be convinced.