feuervogel: (writing)
Note to future self:

Never send someone who doesn't read outside a very narrow section of SF (hard SF, mostly) your space opera novel to beta read. The resulting commentary full of insults that you don't know how to write and that stories that don't focus on the technology aren't "really SF" is not only not helpful but rage-making, and you will have to figure out the most polite way to say, "You have no idea what you're talking about" without coming across as That Writer saying "You just doooon't understaaaaaaand my viiiiiision."

picardrikerdoublefacepalm.jpg

Date: 2011-08-19 02:32 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] picklish
picklish: (Default)
Ugh. SF doesn't have to be technology/science/robot porn in order to be SF.

Date: 2011-08-19 04:50 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] ranyart
ranyart: (Default)
That seems pretty ridiculous.

Also, have you read Cyteen by Cherryh? I just started it and was not at all expecting the contents of the first part of the book.

Date: 2011-08-20 06:07 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] ranyart
ranyart: (Default)
I was just NOT prepared for the blackmail sexual assault. That was a bit of a shock. I'm not much past Ari's assassination but I'm kind of glad it happened because I was so creeped out by that plot point.

Date: 2011-08-19 04:52 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] anthimeria
anthimeria: Comic book panels (Sequential Art)
ARGH. I don't -- even -- ARGH.

Genre snobs make me crazy. The rest of the "mainstream" world already thinks we're not worth the paper we're printed on, we don't need our own being judgemental.

Also, just in general, being insulting is no way to beta/edit. Not even if what you're editing is crap (which yours is not). It's just not helpful, and reflects ill not on the work/writer but on the editor.

ANYWAY. I hope you're getting some useful comments out of your other beta-readers!

Date: 2011-08-22 07:08 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] krait
krait: a sea snake (krait) swimming (Default)
Erm, speaking of novels! I promise to send you the commentary tomorrow evening! (A family thing came up regarding my elderly aunt, so my schedule has been disarranged for much of this week, alas.)

Date: 2011-08-19 01:11 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] luckykitty.livejournal.com
The only thing you can say to that kind of thing is "Thank you for your time and effort."

And then walk away. Later when you're cooler headed, you can come back and see if there's anything worth taking from the critique -- there can be *something* buried under all the misunderstanding, but not always -- and then chuck the rest into the trash.

I've made that mistake before, had someone beta read something that was so. Not. Their thing. And on one hand it's interesting (from a purely objective point of view) to know what a non-ideal-reader would think, but from another it's just an exercise in frustration for both of you.

(I've also BEEN that beta reader before, and ended up writing to the author: hey, I am so not the right reader for you. Since I read the whole thing, I *have* made notes, and here they are, but I really don't think I am your ideal audience, so I have tried to keep the notes to the purely storytelling-technique side. And then fully expected them to throw it in the trash)
Edited Date: 2011-08-19 01:14 pm (UTC)

Date: 2011-08-20 01:36 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] luckykitty.livejournal.com
I saw what you quoted over on Dreamwidth and ... I think there's some worth to what he's saying but it was not stated well, and as you say, he clearly doesn't understand the diversity of sf these days.

But I do think it's a worthy and legitimate challenge: why is the story told in a sf setting? And I think "Because it makes for a fun and novel setting" is *totally* legitimate. But I think deciding that could help you decide which elements to play up about your SF world. I do think you might have a lot of fun pushing the worldbuilding even farther. I did get really curious about the day and night cycles on the station, why they were like that, etc. I know I complained a bit about getting infodumped now and then, but I think that was more just my desire to see your world more through your characters' eyes than through the allmighty narrator's.

I do disagree with his assertion that it has to be technology. I think that's his narrow genre limitation again. But I actually agree that it would be really wonderful to see even more of your futuristic world. I loved the glimpses we got of how space stations are these entities unto themselves, because often in sf on tv they're just owned by this or that alliance, this or that race. (As if being a race makes you a singular political entity.) I loved seeing how you had variations of different religions on different stations and I do love seeing sf where science hasn't obliterated religion. (I am agnostic myself but I really don't believe humanity is about to let go of its need for faith anytime soon.)

I think that is what I would take from his critique. Explore your world even more, really give us a meaty, believable setting. Your politics and plot are sound in my opinion. For me, I want even deeper characterization. He seems to want even broader, more intense worldbuilding.

You're a great writer and you can really work with this, I think. Don't let his insults and clumsy crit skills turn this into something unhelpful.

Date: 2011-08-19 03:49 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] stormsdotter.livejournal.com
Ugh! I agree with the whole 'thank them an walk away' comment.

Sadly, I cannot help because (1) I am not a very good fiction editor and (2) I am rather dead and trying to find what is wrong with me.

Date: 2011-08-20 12:08 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] tammylee.livejournal.com
It's really hard to walk away from being told you basically suck and know diddly squat about writing, let alone the entire science fiction genre (which is, of course, only the gee-whiz high-tech type of story, otherwise it's not *really* SF, just wearing an SF skin and "might even be called sci fi" (but not actually be SF, of course.))

Sorry to threadjack, but this is EXACTLY when you have to walk away. You know there's no way you've missed the mark that badly, he has nothing constructive to really offer, and you're mad.

Date: 2011-08-20 05:38 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] amakarie.livejournal.com
I had a couple disjointed thoughts on this...

1)I've been a beta, proofreader, and the point of being one is to objectively look at content and see what is being expressed and communicated. Whether's it's grammar or content proofing, you're supposed to read through, analyze what the writer's saying, then bring up any issues that you find. "I don't like" is not construtive criticism, and does nothing to help the writer. You have to TELL the writer why or ask questions to give the person clarity if there are issues.

2) That being said, there are people who are not going to like your writing, and especially if you try to get published, you're going to face a lot of rejection. Every published writer got turned down, spit on and the like hundreds of times before they were finally published. Although it's not helpful to you if this person says "this sucks," you have to move on. Look at whatever you can, analyze if any arguments are valid (which I doubt, see above comment), and keep progressing. Anybody can write, but allowing others to read your work is a whole other ball of wax, and you may get some ego-bruising from it in the end.

3) It is perfectly fine if your work is in a niche genre. I personally don't like fantasy novels, but that doesn't mean all fantasy novels suck. Despite that I can still read various types of work and analyze it. You've said that there is an audience for this type of work. I would embrace that and stop yourself from trying to be x, y, or z. If you're working with a distinctive genre, let it be what it is. I mean, Margaret Atwood isn't classic SF, but that doesn't discredit her as a good writer.

Date: 2011-08-20 11:27 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] a-nightengale.livejournal.com
Yeah, like I said elsewhere, it's clearly not your writing; it's the beta reader in question.

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