O_o

[feuervogel]

Note to future self:

Never send someone who doesn't read outside a very narrow section of SF (hard SF, mostly) your space opera novel to beta read. The resulting commentary full of insults that you don't know how to write and that stories that don't focus on the technology aren't "really SF" is not only not helpful but rage-making, and you will have to figure out the most polite way to say, "You have no idea what you're talking about" without coming across as That Writer saying "You just doooon't understaaaaaaand my viiiiiision."

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Comments

[picklish]

Ugh. SF doesn't have to be technology/science/robot porn in order to be SF.

[feuervogel]

Indeed. The genre of science fiction has expanded beyond the whiz-bang, high-tech, 2D characters and flimsy plots of the "golden age" and is a fairly inclusive genre, not exclusive. My book would be filed next to CJ Cherryh (approximately) in the SFF ghetto at a bookstore.

He pretty much excluded about half of what's been published as science fiction over the last twenty years.

[ranyart]

That seems pretty ridiculous.

Also, have you read Cyteen by Cherryh? I just started it and was not at all expecting the contents of the first part of the book.

[feuervogel]

I read it, but a really long time ago, so I'm not sure I remember what exactly happened at the beginning, other than Ari I was assassinated. The azi I'd encountered in a couple other Alliance-Union books (40000 in Gehenna, for sure).

She really likes psychological themes.

[ranyart]

I was just NOT prepared for the blackmail sexual assault. That was a bit of a shock. I'm not much past Ari's assassination but I'm kind of glad it happened because I was so creeped out by that plot point.

[feuervogel]

Ari I was ... not a nice person. Consent issues, as well as nature vs nurture, seem to be a theme in that book.

[anthimeria]

ARGH. I don't -- even -- ARGH.

Genre snobs make me crazy. The rest of the "mainstream" world already thinks we're not worth the paper we're printed on, we don't need our own being judgemental.

Also, just in general, being insulting is no way to beta/edit. Not even if what you're editing is crap (which yours is not). It's just not helpful, and reflects ill not on the work/writer but on the editor.

ANYWAY. I hope you're getting some useful comments out of your other beta-readers!

[feuervogel]

The other beta readers have at least heard of space opera, so yes ;)

But starting out with "you don't know how to write, and you don't even know what science fiction is"? Well, kindly go fuck yourself, sir.

But lets be honest, this isn't really a science fiction story, it uses (very little) science fiction as a skin over a story that otherwise wants to fit into a different genre. Which doesn't make it bad - there are plenty of successful stories that use a sci fi skin (and even get called sci fi). Star Wars is a prominent example. Star Wars is a Western that uses a science fiction skin. But not only is your tech entirely in the background, it does nothing particularly exciting or novel. The closest you get is FTL, and your use of it is entirely mundane. Your story could be told on earth today, more or less, and might even be better if you chose to do so.

[krait]

Erm, speaking of novels! I promise to send you the commentary tomorrow evening! (A family thing came up regarding my elderly aunt, so my schedule has been disarranged for much of this week, alas.)

[feuervogel]

Family obligations come first! I just hope you didn't hate it as much as this other guy did...

[luckykitty.livejournal.com]

The only thing you can say to that kind of thing is "Thank you for your time and effort."

And then walk away. Later when you're cooler headed, you can come back and see if there's anything worth taking from the critique -- there can be *something* buried under all the misunderstanding, but not always -- and then chuck the rest into the trash.

I've made that mistake before, had someone beta read something that was so. Not. Their thing. And on one hand it's interesting (from a purely objective point of view) to know what a non-ideal-reader would think, but from another it's just an exercise in frustration for both of you.

(I've also BEEN that beta reader before, and ended up writing to the author: hey, I am so not the right reader for you. Since I read the whole thing, I *have* made notes, and here they are, but I really don't think I am your ideal audience, so I have tried to keep the notes to the purely storytelling-technique side. And then fully expected them to throw it in the trash)

[feuervogel]

I replied to his email in full. He said he was going to be blunt with me, so I started by saying I'd be blunt with him. I linked to the wikipedia entry on space opera and listed the dozen writers I thought of off the top of my head (starting with the two whose works I'm emulating).

[I started with an explanation of the genre I'm working in, then responded to some of the points he made individually. Perhaps sarcastically on occasion.]

He said my dialogue sucks, my characters are entirely indistinguishable, I don't understand what science fiction is, and that my Muslims are "inappropriately Westernized." I'm sorry, but isn't that like saying a black character is "too white" because he doesn't listen to rap and talk like a ghetto thug? Or that a Chinese character is "not Asian enough" because she isn't a doctor? Hello stereotypes that I'm purposefully trying to circumvent.

[luckykitty.livejournal.com]

I saw what you quoted over on Dreamwidth and ... I think there's some worth to what he's saying but it was not stated well, and as you say, he clearly doesn't understand the diversity of sf these days.

But I do think it's a worthy and legitimate challenge: why is the story told in a sf setting? And I think "Because it makes for a fun and novel setting" is *totally* legitimate. But I think deciding that could help you decide which elements to play up about your SF world. I do think you might have a lot of fun pushing the worldbuilding even farther. I did get really curious about the day and night cycles on the station, why they were like that, etc. I know I complained a bit about getting infodumped now and then, but I think that was more just my desire to see your world more through your characters' eyes than through the allmighty narrator's.

I do disagree with his assertion that it has to be technology. I think that's his narrow genre limitation again. But I actually agree that it would be really wonderful to see even more of your futuristic world. I loved the glimpses we got of how space stations are these entities unto themselves, because often in sf on tv they're just owned by this or that alliance, this or that race. (As if being a race makes you a singular political entity.) I loved seeing how you had variations of different religions on different stations and I do love seeing sf where science hasn't obliterated religion. (I am agnostic myself but I really don't believe humanity is about to let go of its need for faith anytime soon.)

I think that is what I would take from his critique. Explore your world even more, really give us a meaty, believable setting. Your politics and plot are sound in my opinion. For me, I want even deeper characterization. He seems to want even broader, more intense worldbuilding.

You're a great writer and you can really work with this, I think. Don't let his insults and clumsy crit skills turn this into something unhelpful.

[stormsdotter.livejournal.com]

Ugh! I agree with the whole 'thank them an walk away' comment.

Sadly, I cannot help because (1) I am not a very good fiction editor and (2) I am rather dead and trying to find what is wrong with me.

[feuervogel]

It's really hard to walk away from being told you basically suck and know diddly squat about writing, let alone the entire science fiction genre (which is, of course, only the gee-whiz high-tech type of story, otherwise it's not *really* SF, just wearing an SF skin and "might even be called sci fi" (but not actually be SF, of course.))

So I'm envisioning this conversation instead:

"This cake is horrible. It doesn't make sense. It's not tall enough, and there's no frosting. You don't know anything about dessert at all."

"That's because it's not a cake at all. It's a pie."

(Oh, and I hope they figure out what's up! From personal experience, I can empathize that having a mysterious undiagnosed illness is frustrating and full of suck. (Sorry for repeat edits; this originally got stuck in the wrong place.))

[tammylee.livejournal.com]

It's really hard to walk away from being told you basically suck and know diddly squat about writing, let alone the entire science fiction genre (which is, of course, only the gee-whiz high-tech type of story, otherwise it's not *really* SF, just wearing an SF skin and "might even be called sci fi" (but not actually be SF, of course.))

Sorry to threadjack, but this is EXACTLY when you have to walk away. You know there's no way you've missed the mark that badly, he has nothing constructive to really offer, and you're mad.

[feuervogel]

I meant "walk away from" more as in walking away from being rear-ended while you're driving.

[amakarie.livejournal.com]

I had a couple disjointed thoughts on this...

1)I've been a beta, proofreader, and the point of being one is to objectively look at content and see what is being expressed and communicated. Whether's it's grammar or content proofing, you're supposed to read through, analyze what the writer's saying, then bring up any issues that you find. "I don't like" is not construtive criticism, and does nothing to help the writer. You have to TELL the writer why or ask questions to give the person clarity if there are issues.

2) That being said, there are people who are not going to like your writing, and especially if you try to get published, you're going to face a lot of rejection. Every published writer got turned down, spit on and the like hundreds of times before they were finally published. Although it's not helpful to you if this person says "this sucks," you have to move on. Look at whatever you can, analyze if any arguments are valid (which I doubt, see above comment), and keep progressing. Anybody can write, but allowing others to read your work is a whole other ball of wax, and you may get some ego-bruising from it in the end.

3) It is perfectly fine if your work is in a niche genre. I personally don't like fantasy novels, but that doesn't mean all fantasy novels suck. Despite that I can still read various types of work and analyze it. You've said that there is an audience for this type of work. I would embrace that and stop yourself from trying to be x, y, or z. If you're working with a distinctive genre, let it be what it is. I mean, Margaret Atwood isn't classic SF, but that doesn't discredit her as a good writer.

[feuervogel]

His first comment was "you have major structural problems and have to rewrite the whole thing from scratch" because he couldn't fit it into any of the boxes he wanted to put it in. Also, my dialogue sucks, my characters suck, my plot sucks.

A review on a blog or Amazon saying "I hated it" or "this sucked" is very different than someone you asked for constructive criticism giving you a ham-handed "Jesus fuck, you don't know what science fiction even is, you silly twat, how the fuck do you think you can write it?"

The first is a matter of taste, and yeah, that's something all writers will have to deal with. *Good* review bloggers will even point out specific things that didn't work for them (I didn't find X believable, the pacing was off, this character's motivation doesn't make sense, I don't really like space opera), which can be helpful! The second is rude and unhelpful.

[a-nightengale.livejournal.com]

Yeah, like I said elsewhere, it's clearly not your writing; it's the beta reader in question.