Third-gender pronouns and binary-identified individuals

[feuervogel]

I read a blog post yesterday, an intro post from a guest blogger at feministe who usually writes over at Questioning Transphobia.

Queen Emily writes Don’t use third gender pronouns (eg “ze” and “hir”) on a binary identified person because it ungenders them. (Third-gender pronouns are also known as gender-neutral pronouns.) Then down in comments, she says, When someone uses “ze” to refer to me when I have explicitly referred to myself as a trans woman, it’s ungendering and cissexist to boot.

When I read this post by sohotrightnow, Queen Emily's post was the first thing I thought of, even though the writer of the problematic story (which I agree is problematic, and that is not the topic of this post; I'm not even involved in bandom) identifies as female.

The section that made me click the link to the writer's profile:

When I engaged promisethstars in discussion and tried to explain why this was bothering me, zie raised the point that the story is an AU, and argued that from zir perspective, there was no difference between making Gabe Saporta a Catholic priest for zir AU and making Patrick Stump a prostitute for another AU.

(You can see the wtfery evidenced by promisethstars in this quote, but that's not what I'm looking at.) I clicked the profile tag, and saw that Megan will occasionally "fangirl out." To me, that reads as "I identify as a girl."

Ungendering is a tactic used against trans-spectrum individuals by the media, academics, and radical feminists. I obviously do NOT believe that using "zie" to refer to a binary-identified cis-individual has anywhere near the emotional impact it does on a binary-identified trans-individual. But it isn't appropriate, either.

Or am I talking out of my ass here?

Comments

[princess]

I don't think you're talking out your ass.

Then again, I specifically identify as a girl. (Yes, I know, my feminist cred, blah blah blah.) That is to say that I claim girl as my gender, even above and beyond claiming female. (I am femme, there's really no getting around that seeing how much makeup I own and that my favorite color is pink... :) )

I strive only to use zie when I am identifying someone who has used that pronoun, or when I am deliberately obfuscating all identity in something I'm relaying. (I.E. "I had a tough client at the crisis line tonight. Zie needed to talk about the impact poverty was having on zir emotional state." [Which is a completely fictitious example.])

[feuervogel]

For the situation you use in your example, I'd just use singular they. Which makes a lot of prescriptivist purists cringe, but, you know, Shakespeare used singular they.

I wanted to comment this to her* post, but it would be totally derailing, and she's already dealing with trolls. I can just hope she finds it, I guess.

*I assume.

[princess]

I just dislike they in general as a singular non-gendered. Plus if I have to be conscious enough to obfuscate there's less chance of me tripping up. But totally just me, it's not like I expect the rest of the world to conform. :)

And yeah.

[picklish]

I don't know that it's worth trying to play Oppression Olympics. It may be the case that in some average sense, binary-identified cisgendered folks are less harmed by gender identity erasure or spiteful misgenderings. However, when it happens, you have to look at it situationally and at the individuals involved. Some folks take great offense and some don't care at all.

As you say, the important point is that it's not appropriate to misuse pronouns when you know better. Whether sohotrightnow should have known better is a different question entirely.

[eisen]

"zie/ze" has a habit of getting used as a replacement for singular "they" when the author doesn't want to preemptively ascribe a gender to whoever they're responding to when they think there might be any confusion at all on their part; I myself have used it in the past because I think, in the absence of a definitive statement on the part of the individual, I consider impolite in the extreme to shove my own assumptions about their gender onto them when I don't know - because I find it offensive every time someone does it to me.

THAT SAID. Repeatedly using "zie/ze" when someone, anyone (but especially a trans person) has explicitly said what gender they are - that is ungendering and cissexist and presumptive as fuck. :| Ihave it in my intro post and I'm pretty sure my profile that I am pretty firmly identified as female and if I caught someone referring to me with "zie/ze" I would - well, I'd probably rage internally but I'd be so hurt by it I wouldn't say a fucking thing, because look, I have said what my gender is, the least I ask is that other people respect that, not doing so is already a sign the space isn't safe for me and I won't be welcome there.

[feuervogel]

I agree, there's always a situational aspect to it. And at the same time, I don't want to promote the idea that people fall into the binary unless otherwise specified (though it seems that a lot of non-binary-identified people put that in their profiles, though of course not all will, for whatever personal reasons.)

I don't know whether SHRN should have known better or not. It wouldn't take much effort on their part to click the profile button.

[feuervogel]

I understand that, and that's what I figured SHRN was doing, but it still twigged me. I think we'd be better off with people just kicking prescriptivists in the teeth and using singular they. It's got a long history, after all.

I don't know why "they" doesn't bother me but "zie" does; perhaps the association "zie" has with the genderqueer community and those who reject the binary, so person a referring to person b (whose gender identity person a does not know, or doesn't feel like looking for in the profile) as "zie" is assigning them a genderqueer identity? While person a is trying to avoid shoving their own gender assumptions on person b.

And, yes, dammit, use people's preferred pronouns. If someone called me "he," I'd be annoyed. (Though I periodically get mail for Mr. Feuervogel, which goes immediately into the recycling bin.) If someone referred to me as zie, it may or may not bother me, but being cis, I have the privilege of every instance of misgendering not being another knife in my side. (That, and I'm unlikely to be misgendered in person.)

[leora]

It makes ignorant prescriptivist purists cringe. And they deserve it.

The problem is they think they're trying to prevent a change to the language, but they actually got fooled and are the ones trying to make the change.

[leora]

Interesting. I have never been upset when someone has used male pronouns for me. I am sometimes amused, and I actually kind of like to have it happen now and then, because I figure when people are guessing my gender, I'd rather they not guess consistently.

But then, I don't care much about gender personally. I don't mind being she, he. or zie. But I do get that some people do, and the issue isn't unimportant just because I am not personally harmed by it.

I almost never correct people's pronoun usage for me, because I'm really fine with any of the gender options and don't feel that it matters what gender people view me as.

[feuervogel]

I think annoyed is the wrong emotion. It's more that it's the wrong word to refer to me, so I find it odd. It doesn't offend me, it's just weird and wrong.

[bloodrivendream.livejournal.com]

Some people just use "zie" instead of "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun. Personally, I find "they" to sound more neutral. "Zie," as you mentioned has connotations of being specifically genderqueer; plus, it is not really a part of day to day language so it sticks out.

I usually default to gender-neutral pronouns unless it is obvious the person prefers other wise. And as princess, says it is away to obscure the person's identity so as to make what you are saying sound more general and less directed at a certain person.

"I obviously do NOT believe that using "zie" to refer to a binary-identified cis-individual has anywhere near the emotional impact it does on a binary-identified trans-individual." - This I agree with strongly.

[bloodrivendream.livejournal.com]

I feel the same way.

I usually get her/she so I like occasionally getting him/he. I like the inconsistency.

"But then, I don't care much about gender personally. I don't mind being she, he. or zie. But I do get that some people do, and the issue isn't unimportant just because I am not personally harmed by it."--mhmm, except I feel like I only get it in a very superficial, theoretical way; on a gut level I do not understand it.

[feuervogel]

At its root, it's an issue of respect: respect what people tell you about themselves. Don't be an asshole. You know?

I'm also all for using gender-neutral pronouns when the referent's gender isn't important (instead of "generic he," which does nothing but perpetuate male normativity).

Out of curiosity, how'd you find my post?

[bloodrivendream.livejournal.com]

Of course, it boils down to respecting what people tell about themselves. Basically, yeah, do not be an asshole.

I found your post by googling bandom meta gender, you are on the second page.

[feuervogel]

That's kind of terrifying. (Though less terrifying than my initial thought of "oh shit, don't tell me I'm on metafandom." Yeah, I don't know why metafandom is scarier than google.)

[bloodrivendream.livejournal.com]

Because once something gets posted on metafandom you get swarms of people.
I think metafandom usually informs people before they link the post. (Or am I wrong?)

Google just relies on someone (ex. me) having too much time on their hands and googling things they want to read about.

[feuervogel]

It's definitely the expanded audience thing. MF doesn't always inform people they're linking, but they'll always remove the link if you ask.

[smarriveurr.livejournal.com]

I tend to think that unless you solely use gender neutral pronouns (i.e. cis-gendered or trans, male or female, all parties are "zie" in your work), then using them for someone who definitely has a binary gender identity is ungendering. It implies that while the people of whom you use binary pronouns have a "right" to their gender, the person of whom you don't doesn't have the same right.

And of course, people who have to fight societal norms for their gender identity are going to be much harder hit by that sort of ungendering than people who have all the societal backup in the world supporting theirs. It's sort of like "Is it wrong to steal? Of course!" But a couple bucks doesn't mean as much to a millionaire as bus fare does to a single working mom at the end of a long day.

ETA: Looking at the sohotrightnow post (how do I link to dw from lj anyway? I could never seem to find a good means), I notice that there's a fair attempt to avoid pronouns in general, but by the end, promisethestars is "she" and Gabe is "he". So I'm not sure if it was a failed attempt to be gender-neutral in the whole post, or just "I don't know what the gender of this person might be", or what.

[feuervogel]

There's not a good way to link, afaik. DW makes it easy to link here, but.

At a guess, it's an attempt to be gender-neutral the whole time. It seems to be in fashion in certain circles right now.

[corbae.livejournal.com]

I've seen a lot of people use third gender pronouns when referring to lj users they're not particularly familiar with, presumably because they don't know or don't want to look up how they identify. It's always pinged as strange for me, but I don't have a lot of exposure to third gender pronouns in general. My lazy preference has always been to use "they," although I also (dangerously) find myself defaulting to "she" in fannish spaces.

...but god, that story.

[smarriveurr.livejournal.com]

There must be a way, because DW embeds it in crossposts. I think I'll just have try crossposting from DW and then edit the result to find out how they code it all up. Then I can decide if it's worth it.

*nod* And I think if you can manage it without sounding crazy and stilted, that's a worthwhile goal - but one you have to commit to 100%. I tend to try to use s/he when I'm unsure of someone's gender on the interwebs, even recognizing that I'm doing binary gender re-inforcement just by that, but there come points and contexts where explaining/defending your pronouns to an audience just won't rate the effort...

For being such a simple idea (treat everyone like individual human beings), social justice is fucking complicated, yo.

[feuervogel]

Oh, there's a code on how to link to a journal in the profile page if you scroll down. It's a span style.

If I don't know, or am too lazy to check, what gender someone identifies as, I'll use they. Partly just to piss off prescriptivists.

[feuervogel]

Yeah, I often default to she in fannish circumstances. Then again, if you look at the demographics, that's a fairly safe assumption. But if it's someone I'm unfamiliar with, I'll click the little button beside their username and see if they have any information in their profile to let me know which pronoun to use.

[doctorskuld.livejournal.com]

This whole post-gendered thing I have going is seriously held up by the people who are still binary-identified. ¬_¬ *annoyed a bit* My ungendered paradise is never going to happen.

[smarriveurr.livejournal.com]

I should check that out at some point soon. Right now, I've managed to saddle myself with translating some 18th century German, and it's going to require some focus.

I try to use the s/he his/her - I find myself occasionally using "they", but then I scold myself because that's the plural pronoun, damnit. It's just one of those Things.