Last night's Heroes

[feuervogel]

Relatively spoiler-free.

Earlier this season, Claire's friend, then roommate, Gretchen kissed her. It kinda freaked Claire out, but she didn't run screaming. Last night, Claire admitted she had feelings for Gretchen.

I'm just waiting for the "Claire's a lesbian now!!" to start up. It's accurate to say she's in a lesbian relationship with Gretchen, but she *did* back in S2 have a romantic storyline with that dude who could fly whom she helped out by hiding him in her closet.

Claire Bennet has been depicted as bisexual. As a bisexual woman, I'd appreciate it if fan writers didn't ignore or erase that bit, or write it off as "she was just experimenting."

I don't follow Heroes fandom, so I don't know if these things are happening. chasingtides discusses this practice in wider fandom (and society, to an extent) in beautiful detail here: There are few heroes for us. When, for example, I say that Oscar Wilde exhibited bisexual behavior and the reaction is, "What the hell are you talking about, [info]chasingtides, the man was gay," that is erasure. Not only is it erasure, but it denies us our heritage.

(I don't even want to start on the creepy misogyny vibes in last night's episode, or the writing out of characters of color, or how I want to kick them in the shins for so much retcon it hurts.)

Comments

[princess]

I walked away from Heroes when I realized I actually couldn't stand a single character except Hiro. The rest literally turned me off.

But as an also bi woman (of some other minorities which aren't reflected on that show. I'm pretty sure there isn't a Jewish Hero, although I might be wrong...) I am pretty irritated at how there aren't any bisexual role-models/icons on TV/Movies. And the few that are out there get erased as fast as they showed up.

I suppose that's why I clung so hard to Torchwood even though it started to turn me off at once point. It's the only show I've seen where being bi was just normal.

[feuervogel]

I hold that only the first season was good, but I keep watching it because, well, I'm paying for cable; I ought to use it. (Two hours a week. We're paying money for this :P )

I don't think there have been any explicitly Jewish characters. It's possible we were supposed to twig to it through a tiny clue, but ... doubtful.

Over in chasingtides' comment thread, someone brings up Willow (Buffy) and Whedon's skanky sexuality issues (apparently turning into a soulless vampire makes you bisexual, but one homosexual relationship makes you 100% gay, even if you had a het relationship in the past. I've never watched Buffy, so all I can do is report other people's commentary.)

I never watched Torchwood, though it seems like everybody I know did.

On a similar tangent, a friend on LJ mentioned that she wished there were stories where bisexual nonmonogamous people weren't villains. I started writing a fantasy novel (currently scrapped) wherein one of the protags is a bisexual nonmonogamous swordswoman. Yet I worry, if I ever finished it and it got published, whether people would accuse me of propagating the slutty bi stereotype. To which the only answer I can come up with is, well, I'm sorry my life/existence offends you. What better response is there? Any?

[intravenusann.livejournal.com]

I may be hurting gay history or whatever, but the reason I love Oscar Wilde as much as I really, really, really, really, really, really, really do is because he loved and respected Constance Lloyd Wilde*. And Robert Ross. And, though he did not deserve a single moment of that love and respect, Lord Alfred Douglas. As well as countless others of both sexes.

This person is right, there are very few good bisexual figures in the media. This makes me really happy, because for the short period of time that I watched Heroes, Claire was my favorite character. And realistic, enjoyable female characters who are also bisexual? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. They're more mythical than unicorns.

... I just wish that, for once in my lifetime, a bisexual, nonmonogamous person with a high sex drive wasn't a villain. But that's probably not going to happen before? Yeah, I'll just keep writing fanfiction then.


eta: * also his kids. I grew up on his fairytales and that definitely planted the seed. Oscar Wilde: family man. Truer than most people can accept!

[feuervogel]

The now-scrapped fantasy novel I started 8 years ago featured a bisexual, non-monogamous swordswoman XD Maybe someday I'll get back to it. Or just write one into another story. Swordswomen are kind of like mercenaries, right?

[intravenusann.livejournal.com]

Oh man, that would be amazing and would ROCK MY LIFE. I would read the hell out of a book like that. I would read it and love it until it started to yellow and fall apart. I latch on HARD to stories I can relate to in that kind of way and sometimes mentally adjust facts to enjoy a story I like even more. Not having to tweak things would be fun.

[feuervogel]

Of course, then you get the accusations of propagating the belief that bisexuals aren't able to be monogamous blah blah blah, to which I'd respond, "What, I don't exist? I shouldn't tell the story of people like me, who are bisexual and (sadly mostly theoretically) non-monogamous because it might perpetuate a ridiculous notion?"

*headdesk*

Hmm. Maybe Hikaru, who I've conceived of as the "ain't got time for that relationship crap" type of person, who also has trouble opening up to people on an emotional level/relying on others for support (o hai, personal psych issues), could be part of a closed triad. Her relationship status really doesn't factor into this story, though.

[intravenusann.livejournal.com]

I just hate the idea that being bisexual and non-monogamous makes you a BAD HORRIBLE PERSON. I have been called the worst, most unimaginable things by people I like, by people I love and respect, by people who are my friends. Apologies may come out, but a person doesn't just forget that kind of treatment. I am a good person and I'm very respectful and considerate and supportive in ALL my relationships. But even my loved ones have shamed me at one time or another for being bisexual and/or non-monogamous.

A few fictional role models are my consolation prize in life and I pretty much just invent them.

[feuervogel]

I agree, and I'm sorry you've been treated that way. *hugs* You're an awesome person, with one awesome SO and one I've never met, so I don't have an opinion on him ;) As long as he makes you happy, I won't be inclined to dislike him.

It's just, we can't win, you know? If I wanted to present the world as I see it, with a male or female bisexual, non-monogamous protagonist -- not a villain, not a turncoat, though likely a bit of an antihero because I like them that way -- there are people who would accuse me of perpetuating the slutty bisexual stereotype. I'm sorry, but my fucking LIFE perpetuates that stereotype. I'm sorry if my LIFE offends [your] delicate sensibilities.

Then I'd be the subject of 16 rounds of queer!fail and all sorts of associated bullshit that I'd rather not live with.

Of the poly people I know, slightly less than half are bisexual.

[intravenusann.livejournal.com]

I have a lot of awesome people in my life and I choose not to blame any of them for what is, ultimately, an illness in our society that they've just fallen victim to themselves on the rare occasion. It's just, I get lots of bullshit from the world I don't care about and I'll store all the similar hurts from people I actually respect and sometimes it gets to me. Hilde is quite awesome and my boy is very, very good.

Ugh. I hate that anyone can be accused of being a BAD whatever they are by being themself. It's sick.

That stereotype is about people being hurtful with their sexuality. Anyone can do that, but it's something that is difficult to understand that is scary and therefore accused of being hurtful. Is it really that much more painful to be left for someone of the opposite gender? I don't think it really is. I think it hurts just as much as any other kind of broken heart. It hurts to be cheated on! It hurts to have your feelings for someone totally disregarded! It's shaming to think you don't live up to someone's standards, expectations, or past experiences with sex! But that has NOTHING to do with bisexuality or nonmonogamy. And it hurts me so bad I can't even rage over it that these things and my sexuality go hand in hand for pretty much everybody who has let themselves be swayed by fear and the popular opinion. I'd say since heterosexuals are still the VAST majority that they are then the vast majority of heart breakers, two timers, cheaters, liars, and nasty, heartless, jerks. It's just easy to pin that stuff on the Other, the person with the subversive, scary, different sexual identity. That's my pop theory.

[luckykitty.livejournal.com]

I've just recently gotten into the show so I've got it on the brain, but Torchwood's Jack Harkness is well, omnisexual with a high sex drive and he's the star. He's shown kissing both men and women. :)

[intravenusann.livejournal.com]

This is funny, because it will lead me for the second time in only a few hours, I suppose, to explain that I can't get into the whole Doctor Who/Torchwood thing. What little I know of Jack Harness's cavalier attitude, I do not like, but all the more power to him! Kissing is fun.

[luckykitty.livejournal.com]

He just popped to mind as a non-villian bi-type person ;) And like I said, I've got the show on the brain. The show is kinda a cheesefest and the first season was pretty bad at times, so I totally understand how people might not like it.

[intravenusann.livejournal.com]

Well, thank you :) While I can agree with what I know of the character's pathos, I don't think I'd be able to stand him. It may be, simply, that the DW/TW fandom is insane and if I had to sum up the shows without seeing much I'd say it's mostly about romantic conflict, pointless angst, character torture, and scary as hell angels that move whenever you blink (only episode of Doctor Who I've ever seen. Not a good way to start things).

[luckykitty.livejournal.com]

*lauuuuughing!* I haven't really gotten into the fandom yet (other than poking for icons and a tentative look for fic), and maybe I never should! *hides* There's so much more fun to the shows, both of them, than that, although it does feel like the latest seasons fell into some of those traps at some points.

Although, I love that scary angels episode (Blink)! I think it's one of my faves. So maybe you wouldn't like the show even without the crazy fandom :P

Ahahah okay, I will stop babbling ;) I hope you find many more positive bi character portrayals. The fact that there aren't really is frustrating and is something that has disappointed me as well for a long time.

[luckykitty.livejournal.com]

As a bisexual woman, I'd appreciate it if fan writers didn't ignore or erase that bit, or write it off as "she was just experimenting."

Amen to this. That always bugged me about Willow in Buffy. She was with, and obviously cared quite a bit for, Oz for quite some time. Then they just "forgot" all that.

[leora.livejournal.com]

That was what I was going to say. I love Buffy, but I really wish they hadn't had Willow identify as lesbian, but as bisexual. She had a crush on Xander and then a quite meaningful relationship with Oz. Then she fell for Tara and started identifying as lesbian. Why not bisexual? Did she decide that after having a female that men weren't worth it regardless of how awesome a personality they have? She just couldn't give up female anatomy? I find this improbable. Bi would have been a fine identification.

Or maybe she just claimed to be gay because it seemed a simpler, kinder thing to say to Xander than "totally over you now".

[kurai-seraphim.livejournal.com]

***Spoilers for Buffy/Dr. Horrible/everything else Joss does follow.***

Way kinder than ripping his eye out and killing his girlfriend. Honestly, Joss Whedon's track record for letting couples be alive and happy for more than two episodes is pretty nonexistent. He couldn't even get through a three webisode story without having a dude's heart broken as the girl he loves is nailed by his enemy and then offed.

For what it's worth, he was going to bring Tara back to life in the series finale but couldn't due to the actress not being available for shooting.

[leora.livejournal.com]

What I had heard was he was going to have her used as the source of all evil, which can take the form of anyone who is dead, but used Cass instead. I'm not sure having the actress back, but having Tara's image and voice be used as a puppet by an evil creature would be nice to Willow.

Yeah, he's not very nice to his characters. He especially was not nice to Tara, which is sad as I really like that character a lot.

[kurai-seraphim.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that was going to happen. When she said no, he came up with another plotline to try to fit her in. Buffy was going to be rewarded for closing the Hellmouth by being provided with a single life-altering wish. She would then meet up with Willow, tell her about the wish, and show off her fancy new shoes. When Willow says "You wished for shoes?!", Buffy would say "No, silly!" and step out of the way so Willow can see Tara.

This would have kind of cheapened things (not in the least of which Willow's new relationship and of course Tara's original death), though it was still planned until the actress couldn't come through. I haven't read the comic book, so it's possible he did it there instead.

[leora.livejournal.com]

Oh neat, I hadn't heard about that. Yeah, it would have been awkward with the new relationship, but better to have your partner move on to someone else than to be dead.

[kurai-seraphim.livejournal.com]

Haven't watched Heroes all season (still mad for seasons 2 and 3, mainly from Eclipse through big badass fight behind closed doors), but I'd just like to take this moment to point out that Claire's friend from season 1 (played by the guy who would later be John Connor in Sarah Conner Chronicles) was scripted as gay and they had to change it to ambiguous because the actor's agent went apeshit over it. That's why they brought in fly boy as a replacement love interest; she never had a chance to start with and, as with everything else, the writers deployed Plot Device Man, aka Captain Retcon, aka the Haitian to clean up after themselves.

[feuervogel]

Dude, Zack was so gay. He's so the stereotypical gay BFF.

[anacoluthon.livejournal.com]

This is something I thought about during the Sherlock Holmes movie - so they play up the sexual tension between Holmes and Watson, but I was only ok with them fucking if Mary was aware and ok with it too. I have no idea what the slash fandom is like for the film but I hope they're not trying to erase that part of Watson's life.

But yeah, I'm with you. I agree with the poster above mentioning Jack Harkness - Dr. Who and Torchwood have their issues, but they're a lot of fun and I love Jack's omnisexuality.

[thegreyghost.livejournal.com]

I want a show that has a character that starts out gay, falls into a straight relationship, then a series of consecutive straight relationships after that until the end of the series. I'd sit back with a full bowl of popcorn watching the internet lighting up ablaze not knowing how to process that.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I think if the character didn't openly identify as bi after the first other-sex relationship, it would look like turning the gay person straight, and if the person did, it'd look too much like well, if you're bi why not just be with people of a different sex? There's too much of that around in the culture already, so even though there is nothing wrong with an individual identifying as gay and then getting into a straight relationship and then more similar relationships, it is problematic to write that when acceptance of homosexuality is still not widespread enough.

[thegreyghost.livejournal.com]

My prediction is that people from every community would wig out over that situation.

[leora.livejournal.com]

Probably. But the Christian Right might like it, claiming the character had learned better or see gay people can do the right thing.

It would be interesting to find out, but I don't think I'd want the experiment run.