You say "girly" like that's a bad thing.

[feuervogel]

One of the worst ways, in present-day America, to insult a man is to impugn his masculinity. Call him a pussy, a girl, a homo. Plenty of discussions elsewhere have addressed the inherent misogyny in those insults, so I won't go further into that.

It's okay to be a tomboy when you're young, but once you hit puberty, you'd better start conforming to gender norms. Put on makeup, style your hair, wear high heels, or risk being called a dyke. And definitely don't be too smart.

But conforming to the socially-acceptable role doesn't solve your problems, either. Middle school and high school are generally horrible for the non-conforming people (even if they try to conform.) I can't personally speak to what it's like being The Popular Girls, but I wouldn't be surprised if it sucks to be them, too.

Girly things, frilly things, are bad. Anything that society defines as "woman" is inherently weaker, inferior, lesser, a target of derision. Women love to shop, can't drive, are indecisive, are sainted mothers or vulgar whores, are nags, are flaky, can't do math. Yet it's an identity we're supposed to EMBRACE. It's hardly surprising that many women internalize this misogyny and turn it on other women. (See: Concerned Women for America, aka Ladies Against Women.)

I've heard friends say they don't identify as women (nor as men) because they don't feel like the societally prescribed roles fit them. (Being transgender adds a whole slew of complications that I'm not qualified to address; this isn't the aspect I'm trying to discuss.) Believe me, I sympathize. I'm just not sure rejecting the label "woman" or "feminine" is the best solution. (In general. For me. If the following makes sense to you, great. If not, carry on.)

It's difficult for me to present as anything other than female. I'm curvy. I have a feminine facial structure. I'm short. But you know? I don't have a problem with that anymore.

I've spent years fixing the bullshit I internalized, growing up in the society I describe above. I have a raging case of impostor syndrome. I've had to reconcile a love for fabulous shoes with my feminism, and I question whether this shoe thing is societally imposed or if it's something I like. The latter, I've come to decide. Sure, my husband teases me about it, but I tell him to fuck right off. It's not my fault he thinks it's OK to own one pair of shoes for every occasion and outfit. Does it hurt? Sometimes. It makes me wonder if I'm just being a stereotype. But John Fluevog designs fucking awesome shoes, and, dammit, I want them.

Then there's the general anti-femme-ness of society. Being feminine is weak. Frilly, girly, dainty teacups, pink. Flowery dresses.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. I deal with it the way I deal with everything else: on my terms. I'm a woman on my own terms. I define what being a woman means to me. I define what being feminine means to me. Yes, other people will read into my presentation what they will, based on how deeply they believe what they've been exposed to. And you know what? Fuck them.

If more women who don't fit the "mold" are unapologetically female, unapologetically women, unapologetically feminine, maybe we could get society to wake the fuck up. Or show other young women that it's OK to be a smart girl, that you can love fashion AND science, that there are other options than trying to turn your star-shaped peg into a square.

I'm reclaiming femininity, and doing it on my terms. Who's with me?

Comments

[princess]

My favorite color is pink. I collect shoes like they're going to stop making them tomorrow. I wear pretty much exclusively skirts and dresses to work. I own more pairs of knee socks than I do plates.

And I can fix a computer. I'm the one my boyfriend asks about the internet. I can disassemble and reassemble most basic office machinery (copiers, fax machines, etc.). I am learning how to strip and rebuild an engine. I used to be able to recite pi to 64 places, now I'm down to about twenty.

None of these things makes me more or less what I am. I identify as female (and specifically as a Girl, because that's the label that fits. I don't think all people identified as female need to identify as girls, but for me that's the box I live in.) I own it, just like I own that I'm overweight, or an office manager, or a writer, or smart, or Jewish, or disabled, or a good singer.

And I fight for it.

I fight so hard for Girl to be a safe place for me to live. I fight people who tell me Girl is bad. I fight people who tell me that Girl takes power away from Woman (and oh lordy do I get that one, and how I hate having to explain the 101 of when you say my label is invalid, you're not helping the cause, you're hurting it), and I fight people who tell me that Girl isn't as good as Boy. I fight every single day for my lipstick and my nail polish and my Kenneth Coles just like I fight for that lipstick and those Kenneth Coles not to be rushed back into a kitchen and told a Hemi is too challenging for them.

I don't want to make it be about the line between Girl and Boy, I want Girl and Boy to be able to live together in the same world with Woman and Man and None of the Above and labels and boxes I haven't even thought of yet, without any of them arguing that it's invalid.

And until that happens, I'll be over here, scrapping for Girl as hard as I can, every single day.

So I guess that's my way of saying I'm in.

[feuervogel]

Oh, yes. Everybody should have the freedom to be who they are, present how they choose, and we need to get rid of the phrases "boy things" and "girl things" and "women's work." It's time for the annual pinkification of a couple aisles at Toys R Us! There's so much horrific about toy stores and the early stereotyping of games & toys.

Life isn't either-or. It's both-and.

But until we dismantle the patriarchy, well, we're sort of stuck with it. Until then, we need to show we can be both-and. For girls and women who aren't strong enough to say fuck you to societal bullshit, we need to show them it's possible. And support them if they choose to do it.

I had trouble with my residency advisor and the head of the pharmacy department because I don't play that game. You know, the one where you pretend you're less intelligent and defer to the wisdom of the older men, who of course know better. The worst part was that my advisor is a woman :P

[leora]

Thia makes sense. And I just can't do the whole: I am a woman and proud of it. Or I am a girl and proud of it.

I don't think I can join this making it okay to be girly.

Because it takes serious effort for me to identify as a girl or as a woman. I can barely bring myself to identify as female.

I'm fine with standing up and saying: I wear a dress sometimes, and that's okay!

But my brain rebels whenever I try to stick the "girl", "woman", "lady", etc. labels on myself.

It may be good for some people to say hey, I identify with these labels, I'm a worthy person, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I don't see how I can join that fight when it bothers me when people use those terms to refer to me.

But then, I wasn't fully convinced I was female until I started menstruating as a teenager. Until that point, there was some doubt in my mind.

[theserubyshoes]

[Here's something you should get used to me doing---> Getting all involved with the thread of a discussion, replying with information about my family, then coming back to edit it out. Sorry for hitting your inbox twice. I just really, really hate having mentions of my family hanging out in cyber space. One of these days I'll remember this and not make a mess in my, or other people's, journals ^^;]

I love this post and agree with it. It's all about options. There's no reason to eliminate the more traditional options as free choices while we're demanding that all options are available and respected.

[feuervogel]

Heh. It's no big deal, really. I use gmail for this, and it filters and threads and everything, so.

Over in my LJ, this spawned a vigorous discussion, because a friend of mine there is against identity politics and for herself doesn't identify by any of her physical characteristics (ethnicity, sexuality, etc), so she thinks identity by body is wholly a social construct, and can and should be utterly eradicated.

I, uh, disagree.

[luckykitty.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure being girlie (eg pink frilly flowery etc) is a bad thing in our culture right now; in fact it seems rather popular to me. Many women here at the office insist on dressing their young daughters this way and are always talking about going shopping etc. It still feels like those of us who don't like those things are the real outsiders and have the real struggle to still be considered womanly despite not caring for dresses, makeup, etc.

Liking pink, flowery stuff, frilly stuff and shoes may be unpopular on the fringe, ie in certain circles, but I think Sex in the City obliterated that stuff as being "non-modern-woman."

It can feel like a conflict to be a "tough girl" and still like that stuff, so I agree with you there. I think it's too bad we feel we have to be one or the other, a girlie girl or a tomboy, because like most things, few human beings really truly fit the stereotypes.

[intravenusann.livejournal.com]

It's not a bad thing, but it's not a strong, intelligent, cultured, sophisticated, or superior thing. Pink is not a corporate power color. It's still a weak, frivolous, feminine-in-a-bad-way thing.

$0.02 and then some

[intravenusann.livejournal.com]

I really like being female and feminine, despite all the societal bullshit. There are 'unfeminine' things I do--I don't wear make up. But I wear skirts. I love high heels (and shoes, but I can really only afford my six pairs and four of them are totally black heels). I have over three feet of hair. I no longer wear clothes that are made to conceal the fact that I'm stacked and have big thighs. I like tea cups, actually, and dolls, lavender, kittens, small children, baby animals, salads, pink, lace gloves, stockings, thong underwear, sparkly things, flowers, chocolate, etc. etc. etc. etc.

And honestly, this has stopped bothering me. I'm not ULTRA FRILLY and EGL kind of disturbs me. But I used to mutilate my clothing as a child so that it would be more feminine, more what I wanted. I have a feminine, female body and that doesn't make it, or me, weak. I can be physically intimidating and physically dangerous in this body. Feminine is not a synonym for weakness. Growing my hair out did not destroy my ability to do multivariable calculus any more than being born with testicles makes someone capable of doing multivariable calculus. I enjoy industrial rock, splattery horror movies, bawdy jokes, and porn. I like them most when they reflect the 'feminine' things I like as well.

And I am physically attracted to femininity. Soft curves and soft colors and long eyelashes and dancing and glitter and gentleness. My attraction to femininity doesn't care if the feminine body is male or female, just as it finds masculine posturing, leather jackets, motorcycles, violence, and etc. attractive in men and women. I think that attraction has always helped me be sure that, yes, I want to live in a certain way. I prefer a streamlined, elegant femininity for myself (I have an evening gown problem), with the occasional masculine accessory (combat boots, for instance). But being attracted to far more feminine people than I myself enjoy being (lace is itchy) makes me not look down on femininity as lacking. So I don't apologize for the way that I behave and what I am. I am not going to masculinize to gain respect, it's not worth my integrity. And I'm not going to degrade myself just so my intelligence and physical strength doesn't frighten someone who expects me to behave a certain way because I'm not hiding my female-ness from them.



And watch me totally fail to mention the whole motivation for commenting: I love this post and it brightened my day with feminine kickassness.

Re: $0.02 and then some

[feuervogel]

I love playing with looks: Doc Martens with a swishy skirt. It's fun! (Also, I love wearing swishy skirts. Especially if they're also twirly.) And I'm totally with you on soft curves... two of my favorite parts are the curve between torso and hip, and the lower back. Mmm.

I had trouble at my residency because I don't conform to Weak Woman, or generally do the "if it's OK, I'd like to" thing. My advisor, a woman, bent over backward to soothe the egos of the male supervisors. I don't play that game. It made my life that much harder while I was there, but that's how it is.

Thank you :) I'm glad I made your day a little brighter!

[eirias.livejournal.com]

I've definitely internalized somebody's misogyny. Personally I blame C. S. Lewis and his treatment of Susan in The Chronicles of Narnia, which I read over and over again as a child. I also blame that for my deep despair and anger when I hit puberty at ten. I loved those books, but I'm not sure I'll want any children of mine to read them until they're older.

It's okay to be a tomboy when you're young, but once you hit puberty, you'd better start conforming to gender norms. Put on makeup, style your hair, wear high heels, or risk being called a dyke. And definitely don't be too smart.

I dunno. On the one hand I don't feel like I have suffered much at all for not wearing makeup, not styling my hair, and avoiding heels. The only person who's ever joked about me being gay (to my face at least) is the one girl I've ever had a crush on, and I figure hot lesbians get to make those jokes. :)

But on the other hand, the existence of this expected social role has affected my life negatively in other ways. It's amplified that internalized misogyny, in a way, by making me feel distant from my own sex. And -- this one is hard to verbalize -- it's limited me by being something to avoid, something I've constructed my identity in opposition to. Homophobia doesn't just punish gay people once for being gay -- it punishes them twice, by forcing people who are, say, 80% gay to squelch any hetero impulses, out of fear that such things could be used as a wedge against them. This is kinda like that: It's not just that I'm not girly, it's that I feel being girly would be an admission of weakness somehow.

Being a geek woman (and perhaps you've noticed this too) complicates the issue, I find, because you get all this male attention and reinforcement for being non-girly. And that's a many-edged sword -- on the one hand, it's flattering to be thought of as cooler than the other girls; on the other hand, the misogyny inherent in that is sort of annoying; on the third hand there are some creepy geeks out there you'd rather not attract, and if you want to turn them off, is it better to accentuate or suppress girliness? It's not clear to me. I should emphasize that this has not in general been a huge problem for me, as I'm monogamous and have spent most of the time since my age of majority in one long-term relationship or another; but I think it's a small thing that informs the bigger picture, if that makes sense.

Also, as I type this I am wearing a short skirt and carrying a purse. Being back with my partner has made me feel oddly, not-unwelcomely femme. I recently had a nice bull session with a good friend who does hormone research and wondered idly if this sort of internal perception would be reflected in hormone levels. She thought it was possible; males who are anticipating seeing their partners soon show spikes in testosterone levels. Sex is wacky.

[corpsefairy.livejournal.com]

>you get all this male attention and reinforcement for being non-girly.

I've had male geeks give me 'compliments' along the lines of "Wow, you're a girl who plays board games! That's so cool!" Which I find offensive, because it's not a compliment about the board game (ie, "hey, we share an interest!") but about my gender - and my gender isn't something to be complimented, it's just something that is. I also find that if the male geek in question is inclined to say things like that, then it illustrates his narrow view of women, and I'm probably not going to get along with him.

[feuervogel]

I think academia has that effect on people. Because, from what I've read, it's a very cutthroat place, where you're jockeying for position (and tenure) and grants and prestige, which has a very culturally male connotation. Any sign of weakness (which can include femininity, of course) is a bad thing. See also: the military.

Ben's mom is an old school feminist in academia. She doesn't OWN a single skirt or wear high heels. It's all pantsuits, sensible shoes, or sneakers. In the 70s, I assume, the atmosphere was even worse as far as being female.

I also want to point out that somebody who's 80% gay doesn't exhibit hetero impulses... they exhibit bisexual impulses.

[joyeuse13.livejournal.com]

The way I see it, you can't go through life wondering, " Do I like this because I like it, or because society tells me it's what I should like?" That way lies madness. Like what you like, and to hell with anyone who criticizes.

I have to laugh because, growing up, I was all socially awkward and fashionally challenged. Now, I'm one of the girliest girls in my friendship circle. :D

[feuervogel]

There's some value in questioning some things, but if you do it for everything, I agree, you'll be unhappy. I'm a very externally focused person (ESTJ), so anything that gets me to poke the inside of my brain is a good thing.

I'm still fashion-challenged, at least for this century ;)

[doctorskuld.livejournal.com]

This internalized misogyny thing with me is totally complicated by the fact that about 50% of the time, I do actually want to be male. That would be really, really nice. I think I can really honestly say that I'd like my body better that way, but I'm not sure whether or not it's purely that I just want to be male, or whether there's also the rejection of the feminine there in my mind. :/

I'm a woman on my own terms. I define what being a woman means to me. I define what being feminine means to me.

My whole issue with gender is that if we're all going to have a society where we define for ourselves what is "feminine" and what is "masculine," why bother with having terms like "woman" and "man" at all? Why don't we all be physically female or male, and then just behave/dress/etc. how we want and just be a-gendered?

I think my problem with modern "feminism" and the appreciation of all things "womanly" is that it still inherently supports a two-gendered structure, whereas I would just prefer to fight for an agendered structure. :/

Yeah, it's a harder fight because society has been tied to the gender = sex thing for so long. And it's really easy to determine one's physical sex for most people just by looking at them. Still, instead of fighting for a "stereotypically feminine things are okay" kind of place, I would much rather live in a "whatever you want to do is okay." A lot of feminists often forget the flip side of the coin: how difficult it is for a man who feels more feminine to be accepted by his peers. It really feel likes a male who's really girly gets rejected by more people than a female who likes to act really manly. I really feel like solving the problem for both of them may just to fight for a non-gendered world. :D

[feuervogel]

Fighting for a place where stereotypically feminine things are OK would *help* the effeminate man. If liking frilly things and girly things is NOT considered inferior, then it won't matter if XX people or XY people like them.

I don't agree that it supports a 2-gendered structure to raise the facets of humanity that have traditionally been scorned by the patriarchy, because raising them up makes them a "valid" (which isn't what I mean, but I can't think of the right word) piece of society. If nurturing (for example) were seen as positive and good, society wouldn't frown on men taking parental leave while women continue to work. Paternity leave would be as common as maternity leave, and both would be treated positively (they'd be long enough, for one, and compensated at some level, like in Europe.)

[intravenusann.livejournal.com]

Just so you know, I have always loved your viewpoint and love having discussions about sex and gender with you. I respect your views and I really enjoy your unique perspective and the fact that you can phrase it so well. And the fact that you can phrase it so well has finally, finally after so long pointed out to me part of why I still feel ultimately dissatisfied with our current system and with the idea of getting rid of the system entirely.

My whole issue with gender is that if we're all going to have a society where we define for ourselves what is "feminine" and what is "masculine," why bother with having terms like "woman" and "man" at all? Why don't we all be physically female or male, and then just behave/dress/etc. how we want and just be a-gendered?

Both men and women who want to be feminine are treated poorly because femininity is associated with weakness and, well, having all the intelligence and creativity of an empty, clay flowerpot. It's perceived as vapid, selfish, vain, sexual, manipulative, and pathetic. In both men and women. That's been my experience and I am only slightly unhappy to unload those experiences.

And masculine and feminine are still important outside of sex and sexuality. There are straight men, queer men, straight women, and queer women who are all feminine. And there are straight men, queer men, straight women, and queer women who are all masculine. And choose to be such and it is not a reflection of their sex or their sexuality. And here I say man and woman and I mean the they identify as men and women, so a transman is a man and a transwoman is a woman (as it should be). Masculine and feminine and everything inbetween is more fluid, I think, than sex or sexuality, but it's still a fundamental identity in people and in society. It's still important and special, it's just spectral. Gender, sex, and sexuality! They're all on a spectrum! None of them are equal to one another! For reals, people, don't be so simple minded.

And the fact is that, in our society and in most societies, Being female is bad, being feminine is bad, being in any way transgressive against a system of superiority for masculine heterosexual males is BAD. So feminism is still important. If females and femininity are made OKAY then it will be okay for heterosexual men (like, for instance, my father or my boyfriend) to express their inherent femininity, which is such a part of their character that I love.

Your ideas still rock and we need spectrum thought so that people can opt in for the "all of the above" and "none of the above" and "depends on the day of the week" categories.

... this really needs me to have an Elendira icon. :\ I'm disappointed in myself.

[anacoluthon.livejournal.com]

I am trying to track down the name of this short story, but I can't remember it and I thought Neil Gaiman wrote it but that isn't helping me find it: there's a drug that can cure anything but the unexpected side effect is that it will change someone's physical sex. People start using it recreationally and at that point I probably tried to burrow into the pages of the book so I could live in that world. You would probably enjoy it if I could ONLY REMEMBER the name and author! Argh.

If I had had access to something I could use to change my body quickly and easily from one configuration of parts and attributes to another, I may have just done that. It would be amusing to jump back in the old body for very short periods of time, but at this point that's the only way I'd be interested.

It really feel likes a male who's really girly gets rejected by more people than a female who likes to act really manly.

I think this is related to the fact that people tend to give trans women more shit than they give trans men (as a huge generalization; I certainly don't get respect from plenty of folks but I do think I avoid the worst of it in some situations) - they can understand why those without male privilege would try to get it but not why members of a group in power would "step down" or take on attributes of the less privileged class.

[tammylee.livejournal.com]

I'm just doing my own thang. I spent years going against the frills, pink etc. and now that I'm older I see that doing so is just another way I allow society to define me. I don't want to be defined by my opposition to society's expectations.

A bit of soul-searching and I realized I like to look good, be comfortable, and occasionally turn up the sex-factor to ten and flirt with the world.

Heh, fun fact, I don't wear makeup anymore because:
1. I rub my face into my partner's chest many times a day.
2. Lipstick means no kisses. Or messy kisses. Basically, it limits the make-out opportunities.

Then again, even if I were to go all frilly I'd never be 'feminine'. I'm too ogreish.

[feuervogel]

You're not an ogre, Tam. You're an Amazon XD

But yeah, defining yourself by "not $THAT" is a crappy way to live.

[kirin]

FWIW, I poke fun at your shoe-buying impulses not because it's "girly" but just because, as you say, I don't tend to see the appeal of having a dozen pairs of shoes. I'm pretty sure I'd do the same thing if you wanted lots of... well, shit, stupid "women like shopping" stereotype means I can't think of anything men are supposed to want more of... cars, maybe? But there's better reasons not to buy tons of cars. I think this train of thought is derailing.

That said, some of the Fluevog designs are pretty damn awesome. Awesome shoes aren't usually the kind of thing I'd spend my own extra money on, but that's just a matter of taste.

As far as the big picture goes, I generally agree with your rant. Fuck gender roles. And not as in "must do opposite to subvert gender roles at all times", but more as in "who the fuck cares what the gender role is, let's just do what we want".

[tiercel]

I can't think of anything men are supposed to want more of

Fishing lures. Also tractors.

I've never given a shit what anyone thinks about me for any reason (other than my occasionally rude or unpleasant behavior) and I'm not about to start now.

[anacoluthon.livejournal.com]

I will comment in greater length when I'm not rushing through cooking in order to make it to a concert on time, but! You NEED to read <a href='http://www.juliaserano.com/whippinggirl.html">this book</a> by Julia Serano. Nolan has a copy you can borrow if you want. It kicks ass.

[anacoluthon.livejournal.com]

My html are gud! HERE (http://www.juliaserano.com/whippinggirl.html) it is.

[listener.livejournal.com]

Maybe I'll just bring it along on Saturday and forcibly loan it to you. Ha!

I think you'd dig both the section on how masculine presentation is privileged over feminine presentation as well as the bit about (queer) society privileging radical gender identity over binary gender identity.