Class, identity, socialism

[feuervogel]

I read this link on twitter the other day about class and "identitarianism," which rings true in parts but not in others, and I'm not sure I can explain it well.

I've been incoherently pondering it the last few days, but maybe some of you smart people can discuss and help me figure things out.

(Warning: sh*tt*rly in comments)

Comments

[lian]

Uh. The comments are so happy building up this parody of identity politics, tubmlr-style that I can just laugh at the discussion. Nevermind the srwaman "feminism". *rolls eyes* I do think that some of the criticisms are well-placed -- tubmlr-style identity politics *are* the dead end of intersectionality. And guess what, whoever genuinely engages with these concepts knows that, and is cautious of "oppression olypmics". But it's still a -- uhm. Very white male perspective ["neutral"] to glibly ask the to disregard their very immediate, real-life concerns and sublimate them into an intellectually demanding supertheory (i.e, socialism). I understand that anything less -- i.e. trying to engender change *within* the captalist system -- is an exercise in futility for socialis thinkers (or counterproductive/dangerous: I get that. They have a point.). But you know, for the time being? Realistically speaking? Making the current system more inclusive beats far-off socialist dreams any day. (It's not like I'm writing this from the ex-GDR, or anything.)

I dunno. It's kind of like they read (or, as I rather suspect, absolutely DIDN't read) socialist-influenced feminist writing and dismissed it as "Not good/not radical enough". Yeah, well, for this woman? It's good enough. I have very little patience for wholesale dismissal of interesctionality as a concept. (And, frankly, the intellectualizing smugness dripping from the comments section is its own turnoff.)

[feuervogel]

Yeah; the original writer's parody of feminism (among other things), upheld by commenters, doesn't help his argument.

I think of intersectionality theory as a descriptive process rather than a prescription: this is how society is, and these are the ways oppressions interact and intersect. Not that "everyone must be different always" or whatever ludicrous exaggeration he made. On the individual level, we *are* all different! The way we interact with the world is shaped by the bodies we inhabit and what society imposes on us.

We need to dismantle patriarchy/kyriarchy, and make society more level. I think it's accurate to say that the kyriarchy upholds capitalism, and capitalism supports the kyriarchy, so, really, the socialist and intersectionality theorists are fighting the same thing, through different means, and you can't dismantle capitalism without dismantling the kyriarchy (first or simultaneously, I don't care).

And, yeah, it made me ill to read the type of vile intellectual smugness I typically associate with asshole libertarians in a socialist blog. (And I'm (apparently a very bad bc ~identitarian~) anti-capitalist.)

[lian]

Oh, yeah, that's a very lucid way to look at it, re. descriptive framework. I suppose I don't much like the arrogance of socialists (of which Shet. ly. is the parody) that their framework is the only necessary and sufficient one, no adjustments or augmentations needed. No, actually, recognizing and analyzing the ways in which our various (imposed) differences (aside from class) play out is helpful on several levels (Not least of all: the highly personal; self-knowledge and -protection. Idk, socialism certainly hasn't made me resist being pressured/guilted into sex, that was feminism. Oh snap!)

But then, I don't much like to engage with flawed arguments -- lazy, and too temperamental -- even though they may have merit on some axes. I do enjoy it when others do so that I can piggyback :P

[lian]

Speaking off, aren't you off to Germany any day now? I dropped off the earth for a while there so I lost track...

[feuervogel]

I am! Six days! I plan on getting a SIM over there, and once I do, I'll post the number here. (Also, if you're anywhere near Mannheim, we could maybe hang out one day.)

[lian]

Aargh, sorry for lateness, you're basically on the plane already yeah? I'm about as far from Mannheim as you can get, unfortunately (near Leipzig) or otherwise I'd've totally taken you up on that. :/ Boo.

[feuervogel]

I haven't left yet. My flight to New York was supposed to go at 1:15, but it was cancelled due to weather, so I'm not going until 4. (That's 6 hours from now.) I'm loitering in my husband's office, using their internet to read stuff, since he works close to the airport and it's silly to come 20 minutes home to pick me up and drive 30 minutes back.

Boo :(

[lian]

Yiiiikes, I just read the entry. I hope you didn't starve, after all, and have arrived sound and safe! :*