Third-gender pronouns and binary-identified individuals

[feuervogel]

I read a blog post yesterday, an intro post from a guest blogger at feministe who usually writes over at Questioning Transphobia.

Queen Emily writes Don’t use third gender pronouns (eg “ze” and “hir”) on a binary identified person because it ungenders them. (Third-gender pronouns are also known as gender-neutral pronouns.) Then down in comments, she says, When someone uses “ze” to refer to me when I have explicitly referred to myself as a trans woman, it’s ungendering and cissexist to boot.

When I read this post by sohotrightnow, Queen Emily's post was the first thing I thought of, even though the writer of the problematic story (which I agree is problematic, and that is not the topic of this post; I'm not even involved in bandom) identifies as female.

The section that made me click the link to the writer's profile:

When I engaged promisethstars in discussion and tried to explain why this was bothering me, zie raised the point that the story is an AU, and argued that from zir perspective, there was no difference between making Gabe Saporta a Catholic priest for zir AU and making Patrick Stump a prostitute for another AU.

(You can see the wtfery evidenced by promisethstars in this quote, but that's not what I'm looking at.) I clicked the profile tag, and saw that Megan will occasionally "fangirl out." To me, that reads as "I identify as a girl."

Ungendering is a tactic used against trans-spectrum individuals by the media, academics, and radical feminists. I obviously do NOT believe that using "zie" to refer to a binary-identified cis-individual has anywhere near the emotional impact it does on a binary-identified trans-individual. But it isn't appropriate, either.

Or am I talking out of my ass here?

Comments

[princess]

I don't think you're talking out your ass.

Then again, I specifically identify as a girl. (Yes, I know, my feminist cred, blah blah blah.) That is to say that I claim girl as my gender, even above and beyond claiming female. (I am femme, there's really no getting around that seeing how much makeup I own and that my favorite color is pink... :) )

I strive only to use zie when I am identifying someone who has used that pronoun, or when I am deliberately obfuscating all identity in something I'm relaying. (I.E. "I had a tough client at the crisis line tonight. Zie needed to talk about the impact poverty was having on zir emotional state." [Which is a completely fictitious example.])

[picklish]

I don't know that it's worth trying to play Oppression Olympics. It may be the case that in some average sense, binary-identified cisgendered folks are less harmed by gender identity erasure or spiteful misgenderings. However, when it happens, you have to look at it situationally and at the individuals involved. Some folks take great offense and some don't care at all.

As you say, the important point is that it's not appropriate to misuse pronouns when you know better. Whether sohotrightnow should have known better is a different question entirely.

[eisen]

"zie/ze" has a habit of getting used as a replacement for singular "they" when the author doesn't want to preemptively ascribe a gender to whoever they're responding to when they think there might be any confusion at all on their part; I myself have used it in the past because I think, in the absence of a definitive statement on the part of the individual, I consider impolite in the extreme to shove my own assumptions about their gender onto them when I don't know - because I find it offensive every time someone does it to me.

THAT SAID. Repeatedly using "zie/ze" when someone, anyone (but especially a trans person) has explicitly said what gender they are - that is ungendering and cissexist and presumptive as fuck. :| Ihave it in my intro post and I'm pretty sure my profile that I am pretty firmly identified as female and if I caught someone referring to me with "zie/ze" I would - well, I'd probably rage internally but I'd be so hurt by it I wouldn't say a fucking thing, because look, I have said what my gender is, the least I ask is that other people respect that, not doing so is already a sign the space isn't safe for me and I won't be welcome there.

[bloodrivendream.livejournal.com]

Some people just use "zie" instead of "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun. Personally, I find "they" to sound more neutral. "Zie," as you mentioned has connotations of being specifically genderqueer; plus, it is not really a part of day to day language so it sticks out.

I usually default to gender-neutral pronouns unless it is obvious the person prefers other wise. And as princess, says it is away to obscure the person's identity so as to make what you are saying sound more general and less directed at a certain person.

"I obviously do NOT believe that using "zie" to refer to a binary-identified cis-individual has anywhere near the emotional impact it does on a binary-identified trans-individual." - This I agree with strongly.

[smarriveurr.livejournal.com]

I tend to think that unless you solely use gender neutral pronouns (i.e. cis-gendered or trans, male or female, all parties are "zie" in your work), then using them for someone who definitely has a binary gender identity is ungendering. It implies that while the people of whom you use binary pronouns have a "right" to their gender, the person of whom you don't doesn't have the same right.

And of course, people who have to fight societal norms for their gender identity are going to be much harder hit by that sort of ungendering than people who have all the societal backup in the world supporting theirs. It's sort of like "Is it wrong to steal? Of course!" But a couple bucks doesn't mean as much to a millionaire as bus fare does to a single working mom at the end of a long day.

ETA: Looking at the sohotrightnow post (how do I link to dw from lj anyway? I could never seem to find a good means), I notice that there's a fair attempt to avoid pronouns in general, but by the end, promisethestars is "she" and Gabe is "he". So I'm not sure if it was a failed attempt to be gender-neutral in the whole post, or just "I don't know what the gender of this person might be", or what.

[corbae.livejournal.com]

I've seen a lot of people use third gender pronouns when referring to lj users they're not particularly familiar with, presumably because they don't know or don't want to look up how they identify. It's always pinged as strange for me, but I don't have a lot of exposure to third gender pronouns in general. My lazy preference has always been to use "they," although I also (dangerously) find myself defaulting to "she" in fannish spaces.

...but god, that story.

[doctorskuld.livejournal.com]

This whole post-gendered thing I have going is seriously held up by the people who are still binary-identified. ¬_¬ *annoyed a bit* My ungendered paradise is never going to happen.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I think you should avoid using non-gendered pronouns for those who don't want them. To me, that's just a politeness thing. But if you use them as your default for everyone, and you slip up and use them on someone who wanted a gendered pronoun, that's a very small thing, and I don't think it is ungendering. However, if you deliberately deny someone a gendered pronoun they want when you know better, than that's not okay.

It's a lot like Ms. for an adult female. As soon as they taught me the Ms. option in Elementary School, I used it exclusively with all of the adult females around me. I was taught none of the social context whatsoever, and I had no ideas about how it connected to feminism. I just knew that Miss. was for unmarried women, Mrs. for married, and Ms. could be used for either. And I leapt at that, because I would not need to keep track. So, it's my default, and it's more efficient. However, now that I am older, I know that it's a bit rude to make someone else's title choice for them, so when I can remember, I use someone els's preferred title. In some cases that will still be Ms., but sometimes it will be Mrs. And I think it's a bit rude to force Ms. on someone who doesn't want it. But if I simply mess up, I don't think anyone should get upset at me over it, whereas if I force it on someone, then they have a right to be annoyed. And the same the other way around if someone defaulted to Miss or Mrs and got it wrong. A mistake is understandable, but pushing your choices onto other people's self-identification is not.